There have been many occasions over the years when Carlisle United supporters have shown themselves to be not quite the politically correct group that I would hope for. However, the events of 19 February 2000 were an extreme case where for virtually the entire game, a group of over 50 fans shouted racist and anti-gay chants at Leo Fortune-West, the Rotherham striker. I have created this page with my original posting to the Carlisle United Internet Mailing List and the subsequent comments from other list members. I followed this up with a similar teletext submission for the Thursday night following the Rotherham match and also a letter to Carlisle United commenting that they should make a statement about it.
While some would argue that this is just making too much of "jokey" terrace banter, we have to remember that tolerating intolerance at any level simply pushes back the line of what is OK until we wake up one day and find that we are the subject of that intolerance.
Please see my later produced Tenets which summarise my views nicely
Firstly, the match.
Not a bad performance and to summarise it, I think we may have won if we had had Weaver in goal rather than Keen. Again, there was a silly booking for dissent. When will players learn that throwing tantrums will gain nothing and probably end in a booking....
The Fans.
I am getting sick and tired of hearing "Knighton out!" chants. Anyone with more than a few brain cells knows that Knighton is going nowhere until a buyer comes forward. Negative chanting will only demoralise the players.
Also, the dark side of soccer fans (and Cumbrians in particular) was on show. There were constant anti-gay and occasional racist chants from a group of Carlisle supporters directly behind the goal. If there are any of them reading this, then you are sad, pathetic, brain dead little losers who need to grow up.
David Atkinson
Leo takes it up the arse up the arse
Leo takes it up the arse up the arse
Only joking mate
Lee Gardner
Perhaps if I had been there with my Children (8 and 6) you could have explained to them what this means
Agreed Dave, Female assistant ref Wendy Tomms came in for some foul and abusive language from CUFC supporters at Exeter last year, and I now resist taking my kids to away matches (thankfully you don't seem to get it in the Paddock). It doesn't happen at Forest Green! Unfortunately it only requires one thick person and someone who is easily impressed by that sort of thing, or one really thick person on his own. I would say there is every time I go to an away game a 50-50 chance that there will be some loud mouthed uncouth bigoted git making the away end a non child friendly place
Paul Watson
I was at the match, the first time this was chanted was amusing, it began to pall after the 50th or 60th time, and then it became the standard abuse for any Rotherham player within earshot. I thought that it was pathetic, and showed too many of our fans to be bigoted halfwits. Still, I guess that Lee is just a bit of a joker...
Nick Garratt
Fully agree with your comments. I am constantly embarrassed by racist chanting from thick headed monkies who have just gone to the match as an excuse to get so pissed they can hardly walk. - I am sure it happens at other clubs, but it is dying out
It really gives Carlisle a bad name. Mind u these people will not be reading this because they probably cant.
Graeme Dixon
Sad to hear about the brainless minority, i must admit i've never heard anything like that in the Paddock but have vivid memories of two idiots in front of me at the spurs games making obvious references to the supposed ethnic make-up of tottenham fans, morons.....
Robert Dex
Dave I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. For those who don't and wish to post their replies to the list please put something in the subject line to warn me. Such comments are not what I want to read and I can't be clicked to open them. A header like "ignorant bigot with sick sense of humour" should cover it.
Bumble
Great idea Bumble! Or better still post replies to a mailing list for "ignorant bigots with sick sense of humour"
Ian Elliott
However Leo Fortune-West was too much to handle especially after the abuse thrown at him by our fans, in terms of his sexuality. I think our fans made a mistake winding him up and played right into his hands.
Mike Corry
Constant chanting of "Leo takes it up the arse" only proved to fire the striker into retribution mode.
Ian Scott
How could I be so stupid, here's me thinking it was our shite defending that let Leo fortune west score a hat trick when it was obviously us lot calling him a faggot.
I'm so ashamed I'll never be able to show my face in Carlisle again. I mean what if we've cost Carlisle the three points we need to stay up.
I'm soooo sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jonathan Turnbull
I suggest that your mistake is to be sarcastic about an issue that the vast majority of this list feel very strongly about. Ignorant bigots can be removed from the list. Similarly, they can be removed from football grounds by the decent fans (ie the majority) complaining to the stewards. We certainly don't want a return to 70s attitudes in the grounds and whilst this list is a forum for views about football in general and Carlisle United in particular, there is a limit.
Rob Scott-Buccleuch
Firstly I'd like to say that, before the weekend, I didn't know anything about Leo FW's sexuality. However, presuming that he has, then it takes a bigger man than me to stand up and say something like that as a professional footballer (just look at what happened to Justin Fashanu). Also, if an on form striker who also just happened to be gay signed for Carlisle then, I for one, would welcome him with open arms. In short, I don't condone homophobic, or come to that, xenophobic attitudes.
Once that's all said and done though, I'm sure he must receive that kind of stick week in, week out and to suggest that may have been the reason that we lost is ridiculous. One of the most enjoyable parts of football, at least in my opinion, is the banter that goes on between rival supporters and to say this is intolerable may be the start of a slippery slope. Is it acceptable to question the parentage of certain players, the mastubatory habits of officials or perhaps certain people on the list would rather see a polite clapping at the scoring of a goal a la the corporate boxes of the Manchester United's and Arsenal's of this world.
If Leo Fortune-West had had an off day and somebody else had scored the hat-trick, then it would of been them who came in for the stick and , I'm sure, no one would of heard a word about Leo FW's sexuality.
Paul Watson, I'm sure you haven't heard anything like that standing in the Paddock, but the Paddock's the family area. I'm sure you'd notice quite a difference stood in the Warwick on any Saturday afternoon. A quick question Paul, where does the majority of the atmosphere come from? The Paddock or the Warwick?
What I'm trying to say is that giving a particular player stick isn't necessarily indicative of a homophobic attitude. The most stick I've seen anyone receive was the white, heterosexual Bournemouth keeper of a couple of seasons ago. A CU player, I can't remember who, whipped in a cross and it missed the Carlisle strikers, the Bournemouth defence and the keeper entirely and some how managed to find the opposite top corner. After that the guy got so much stick I almost started to feel sorry for him. At the end of the 45, he gave a cheeky wave to the Carlisle fans and jogged off to the other goal. I didn't see the guy again until the 94th minute on the 8th May.
Perhaps all Jonathan Turnbull was trying to suggest, albeit not very subtly, is that maybe we should be concentrating on the result as opposed to the chants. And to threaten expulsion from the mailing list for these comments is terrible - after all what Lee Gardner said was a damn sight more inflammatory.
Or am i just an ignorant bigot?
Apologies for such a long e-mail!
Chris Armstrong
Sorry, Chris. There is no way at all that anyone in their right mind can condone racist or any other bigoted chanting inside or outside any football ground. No way whatsoever. All the chanting did, on this occasion, was to wind up the home fans, who, in turn, spurred on their team. This is directly opposite to the efforts of the away team who (whoever they are) firstly try to quieten the home fans by subduing the home team. Standard football tactic. Our moronic fans suceeded in helping Rotherham beat us. We could need those points come May - if it goes that close, I'm sure the point will be repeated by better than me. There is a pronounced groundswell of opinion on this list against bigotry - it would be the majority who could demand expulsion.
Worryingly, CUFC have not had any coloured players since Stephane. Is this on merit?
Whats wrong with applauding a good move by the opposition? If it's good enough for the Kop .......
If you want atmosphere at BP, forget the Paddock and the Warwick - come to the East Stand! ;>)
Rob Scott-Buccleuch
Chris Armstrong said
>Or am i just an ignorant bigot?
No, you talk a lot of sense, Chris. My brother was at the Rotherham game, sat near a big guy who made most of the noise. He was making up songs to regular tunes, like hymns. My brother reckoned it was extremely funny, not offensive.
According to my brother, Leo Fortune-West has complained officially to the FA about the fans of Darlington, Hartlepool and Carlisle, for racist remarks.
Jeff Graham
Jeff, trust me, it wasn't funny.
Nick Garratt
OK, I was only reporting what my brother heard, maybe different part of the ground. I think it's significant that Fortune-West has complained to the FA. He probably gets stick every game, but it has obviously reached a level recently that it has offended him. Apparently, it started with the Darlington fans, was carried on with the Rotherham-Hartlepool game and then on to our game. Nasty.
As to whether the chanting wound-up F-W, let's face it - we were playing the top of the table, at home, where they've played 16 and lost 4, only 11 goals scored against. We're bottom of the table, we've only won one away this season, and only scored 13 out of 16 games - F-W was on a hat-trick when he got out of bed that morning 8-)
Jeff Graham
I started this thread, so perhaps it is fitting that I should try to finish it.
A joke is a joke, but what happened last Saturday was not a joke. The
chanting started _before_ Fortune-West scored his first goal. If a
player gets abuse from the off, three things can happen:
1. He ignores it
2. It affects his play negatively
3. It affects his play positively
It is unlikely that the fans can know in advance how chanting will
affect him, and on this occasion there is little doubt that it was
positively. But whatever the result, there is _no_ excuse for racist or
anti-gay chanting. Particularly, using the defence "he must be used to
it" is pathetic. How do Cumbrians react to being called Jocks every
week?
I have heard this sort of chanting before, but it is usually only a handful of fans and I quite often say something to them. On this occasion it was well over 50 fans who were away to one side of me. The Stewards did nothing to stop them.
As for swearing, I do so when with my friends (ask Chris McFarlane, I have done so in the chat room), but I do not swear in public except in extreme circumstances. Generally I have sufficient brain cells and vocabulary active to use alternative wording.
This has been a very interesting thread, but perhaps it is time for everyone to reflect on what has been said and move on to less important things - the survival of CUFC being one.
Since Tuesday was my birthday and we won, at the behest of Bumble I am declaring Saturday my official birthday !-)
David Atkinson
Just thought I'd add my 2p worth.
Does anybody know anyone who was in the main bunch of people chanting at LFW? Or have they been seen before at CUFC games?
One possibility is that they are homophobic @ssholes from Rotherham who go in the away end for one reason only. Could be why LFW has complained about several clubs.
I didn't hear any racist chants, but I was 25 mins late.
The thing that really got me about all this was when a kid behind me shouted at LFW, the group behind the goal cheered. Not the kind of behavior to be encouraged methinks.
Chris Baker
I am not racist or completely politically correct. But i am sorry racist chanting is just not funny. All it shows that fans that do this are born bloody stupid - simple as that.
Who scored a hatrick? Was it the white hetrosexual Dobie or the other guy?? - so the winding up really worked didnt it?
Graeme Dixon
Apologies to Dave for dragging this one out a little longer but I have to agree when he says that using the defence "he must be used to it" is certainly pathetic.
I first visited BP back in the 60s but I still can't get used to the idea the the sexual inclinations of Cumbrians has something to do with sheep! Even on the rare occasions that Carlisle featured on motd some smart TV director usually managed to include at least one shot of sheep grazing in the fields beyond the waterworks end.
Anyone else old enough to remember??
Ian Elliott
I know this is starting to drag on, but I need to reply to a few of the comments - and I promise this'll be my last word on the subject.
> Apologies to Dave for dragging this one out a little longer but I
> have to agree when he says that using the defence "he
> must be used to it" is certainly pathetic.
Errr,no. What I said was "I'm sure he must receive that kind of stick week in, week out and to suggest that may have been the reason that we lost is ridiculous."
> Sorry, Chris. There is no way at all that anyone in their right mind
> can condone racist or any other bigoted chanting inside or outside any
> football ground. No way whatsoever.
All I'm trying to say is that the chants were a consequence of his performance. If the guy were straight, then he'd probably of received the same amount of stick but simply for something else. Therefore, the chants should be seen for what they are - having a pop at the guy 'cause he's had a good day and not indicative of an inherently racist/sexist Carlisle support.
> Worryingly, CUFC have not had any coloured players since Stephane.
> Is this on merit?
At the same time as we had big Steph, we had Rodney and Deano. Carlisle has always found it notoriously hard to attract players to the area - I'm sure that's amplified for coloured players as the area has such a low proportion of ethnic minorities in the general population.
> If you want atmosphere at BP, forget the Paddock and the Warwick - come to
> the East Stand! ;>)
I have to admit that when I get to BP, which isn't as often as I like living down south, I always stand in the Paddock. I DO make a conscious effort not to swear and I've certainly never made any racist or other bigoted comments.
Chris Armstrong
If any of you knew anything about etymology you would know that homophobe means hating oneself not homosexuals. I don't know why it's so trendy to support sexual deviants; you wouldn't be so quick to defend paedophiles. I believe in calling a brown hatter a brown hatter.
Auntie Sodomite
well if thats your opinion pal - your entitled to it - ive got a question for you though. Why not use your real name on your E Mail?
Mick Mitchell
Maybe he did. Maybe this moron legally changed his name to Auntie Sodomite. Maybe he is just stupid enough to do that. He is certainly stupid enough to think that homophobic is from the Latin homo meaning man, whereas everyone else of course knows it is from the Greek meaning "same".
Why don't we just de-list this idiot and get back to football?
Andrew Whyte
I'll second that idea Andrew! I'm sure there must be other lists where like minded morons can get together to exchange their pathetic ramblings. The house of lords probably has one.
Ian Elliott
OK smart ass anonymous person
1) Concise Oxford dictionary:
homophobia n. a hatred or fear of homosexuals.
The prefix homo refers to 'of the same type' as well otherwise a homosexual would be somebody who fancies himself. Ok so homophobia should then mean the hating of other human beings but the above is the accepted and dictionary definition. The prefix auto should be used to refer to 'the self': automatic (self working) autonomous (self governing) autointoxication (self poisoning) autostrada (Italian Motorway) - that last one was put in for comic effect by the way
2) There is a world of difference between a homosexual and a paedophile, the former normally involves consenting adults, the latter does not for a start.
I could go on, but I will just summaries by asking people who want to be smart arses to check basic facts first. I know little about etymology, but I do know how to use a dictionary, by showing that you don't know what your talking about, you may as well be calling a spade a F***ing chainsaw
Paul Watson
Paul - you really should get straight to the point mate :)
Chris MacFarlane
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