22 December 2011
The Winter Solstice - a New Beginning and a drive to the Blue Yonder

This page has been created in response to Carlisle United's Project Blue Yonder - a plan to move from Brunton Park to a new all seater stadium, provisionally identified as being at Kingmoor Park. Most of the points listed are not the views of this RIOA's author, and were collated from the various discussion threads which were spawned on the CUFC Online messageboard.

Some of the points laid out below have already been answered, and some will not be answerable at the moment, but they should be considered by the club as points to be addressed moving forward, particularly in order to keep the supporters of Carlisle United fully engaged with the proposed move.

Carlisle United have already made available the Documentation from the initial Carlisle United Exhibition for fans to review. This includes maps and outline plans for the proposed relocation sites, and a phased redevelopment of Brunton Park.

Proposed move to Kingmoor Park

Food and drink

• Keep all facilities open through the second half, and for an hour after the match, to get additional income from those in no hurry to leave. This will also ease congestion for getting away from the stadium. Perhaps have some after match meetings/forums for supporters with players and staff.
• Bars
• Decorate with memorabilia, photographs, 'potted history' panels, etc.
• Create a Social Club (which would double up as a function suite) in one stand or next to the stadium, for fans to use from four hours before kick-off. Several to model this on, including Notts County (in stand), Walsall (next to stadium), and Exeter. Good pints, good food, and a simple price structure - don't have people messing about for loose change!
• Fan zone with outdoor bars?
• Vending machines that could supplement (at the same price) the main refreshment outlets
• Food
• Work with Made In Cumbria to provide good quality food at the same price as the current poor quality food
• Why not sell the same burgers which you can buy at the Pioneer shop next to the guild hall? An inch thick tasty beef burger and fried onions in a buttered roll for £2.
• It is incredible that we can't buy a good Cumberland Sausage in a roll at the Home of the Cumbrians!
• Special Carlisle United branded recipe food, such as the Brunton Pasties. Sell these from the club every day, not just on match days. On a retail park there will be opportunities to feed workers and shoppers.
• Drink
• Staff with better bar skills than some currently at Brunton Park
• More and/or better prepared staff to cope with the halftime rush. One serving, and one taking payments?
• Better quality drinks in bottles and cans?
• Decent bottle ciders, rather than manky Strongbow
• Local pints on draught - sell Cumbria, don't ignore it
• Cheap soft drinks

Stand Names (or alternative bar names)

• Ross
• Balderstone
• Stokoe
• Ashman
• Young
• Beardsley
• McIlmoyle
• Brunton

The little things

• Unfortunately one day of supporter consultation/promotion for the proposed move isn't enough. Why not three days? Thursday-Saturday? Get people in early on the Saturday, and make some food and drink sales?
• Map the existing season ticket holders seating positions onto the new stands and allow them to have first choice of a view which approximates to their existing pitch view
• Offer blocks of seats to fans who already sit or stand together. This will be particularly important to those who stand, as it is often overlooked in new stadia, and would be a big win for the club
• Decent leg and bottom space in seats
• Engage with local NHS and other organisations to identify and publicise interesting walking routes to encourage fans to get exercise by walking to and from the games
• Secure bicycle and motorcycle parking
• Contributions of photographs, etc, from fans for the walls of the bars, concourse, etc
• Set the ticket price between current seated and standing prices, to lessen the impact on those that stand (thus reducing risk of lost fans), and to attract new fans
• Somehow emulate the triple-peak WRE roof somewhere within the stadium. It is iconic. The triple-peak could be emulated in various ways, for example:
• Paint/brick design on a wall
• Pattern of seat colours in an end-stand (South?)
• Ensure that fans are kept fully informed on all aspects
• Web site for the development, including a Frequently Asked Questions section
• Regular feature in matchday programme and periodical United Scene
• Dissenting voices should be given equal priority to those approving of Blue Yonder
• Give the option of Season Tickets which don't tie you to a specific seat, so that you can decide where to sit depending on which friends are going that week.
• Space for supporters' flags to be hung each game, to personalise and engage with the stadium
• Season Ticket perks should be built into the new stadium, make a Season Ticket more than just about having to pay in advance. Season Ticket Holders Lounge with (quality) discounted food and drink?
• Wall of fame at the club shop? will they be moved up there or just demolished?
• A statue of Jimmy Glass in scoring/celebratory pose (its iconic worldwide), or photo(s) inside
• Highlights of a classic game before kick off on the big screen, if i was a home fan, that'd get me up for it
• Could a supporters group be set up to work with the club to bounce ideas off (not the trust). Something like that could really bring a feeling of moving as one for the best of the club although while the debate on to build new or stay at Brunton Park takes place it will probably be fragmented initially.
• Will the directors potentially see the value of their shareholdings grow? If so will they commit to placing any profit (they bought the shares for £100 didnt they although Andrew Jenkins has put more in recently so it could be a lot more before he could se a return) back into the club.
• Match day experience - can we keep Dunny and his spot on tunes
• a "hall of fame" way - start with 12 statues, including relocation Hughie Mc
• a new person inducted every year as the result of a popular vote by say season ticket holders. This would bring tradition to a new ground. It would be great to regale kids with stories about Balderstone etc. When I took my daughters down last year they were amazed when I drew their attention to the guy talking beside us and I pointed out it was the guy who had a statue on Warwick Rd
• Everyone will have ideas - but the best 11 ever at each position plus the manager,and then a new person each year
• eventually may get people like Dick Young in there, Degsy, Pattison :D etc
• an unveiling of the new person at the first game of each season (I don't know how long these things take to make)
• Name the Media Facility at the new stadium after Derek Lacey
• Ticket pricing
• with the running costs of the stadium being lower there is some scope for the price of tickets to be lower as well
• It would be good if the ticket price remained the same the first season, but included travel from the city if required (discounted if travel not needed).
• Somewhere in the city selling tickets, to ensure people who don't have season tickets can purchase early without having to trek up there twice in a week in order to get that discount.
• Perhaps keep the club shop on Warwick Road?
• open a small shop in the Lanes?
• There have been persistent complaints about the Cumberland Building Society ticket service
• A good idea would be a show of hands from supporters in the stadium at half-time of a future game for each of the following statements in relation to moving to Kingmoor Park - Simple and effective. This could be repeated monthly throughout the progression of plans, to gauge supporters' feelings. Additionally, other key questions could also be asked.
1. Do you agree with CUFC leaving Brunton Park?
2. If yes, do you agree with CUFC moving to Kingmoor Park?
• Provisional yes to the move, but wanting more information
• Undecided or not bothered
• Provisional no to the move, but wanting more information
• No to a move

Enablement

• Who are the 'enabling partners'?
• What is the maximum figure our enabling partner (if we have one yet) will be putting in? A low figure will limit the design, facilities, capacity etc. I fear when it begins to go through, we won't have any money to 'put to' and we'll be stuck with something 'on the cheap'
• What if the developer is unable to raise sufficient funds to support the ground development?
• We were led to believe that a development partner was 'on board' and that 100% of the funding was to come from development partners.. Now reading the Q&A section it states that "CUFC are currently investigating possible development partners who would provide the bulk of the funding".
• Where is the balance of power in determining what the development looks like?
• What incentives would there be for the developer to deliver anything other than a modern "Deva Stadium" shoebox?
• Has the club considered reducing the spec of the fit-out of the stadium to gain a better "shell" from the development funds and then utilising other sources of income to fit the ground out to a high spec - e.g. Caterers to share in profits in return for fitting out facilities, Breweries fitting out lounge areas etc.
• Who will have the rights to income streams from within and around the ground (Parking, concessions etc)

Location

• Where were the other 16 proposed locations? The other proposed sites were in last fridays Cumberland News, but access to a larger scale map would be good.
• Other clubs in similar locations, e.g. Bolton charge significant amounts for parking/travel arranged through the club. This is effectively an increase in ticket price as walking to Kingmoor would not be an option from Town for most. Will the club commit to maintaining 'total cost' of attendance at a similar level to the current BP match experience (Bearing in mind that the vast majority of supporters park for free/walk
• Brunton Park is in the perfect place. Close to the city centre, in easy reach of road and rail links. What is the basis of the belief that more fans will go to Kingmoor Park? What's going to attract you to travel four miles out of town if you don't already go?
• Why do training facilities have to be at the main ground location? Many clubs use facilities away from their ground, and with the new Academy changes and ruling on releasing young players to the bigger clubs big investment in this is wasted. Things such as floodlit astro/3g pitches could be incoroporated and hired out to make money back.

Infrastructure

• Arrange with bus companies for good and frequent buses from the city centre (and perhaps key other city locations) to and from games, including weeknight games
• Parking - how much will it cost, and how many spaces? There are plans for a thousand capacity car park, and there will be buses to the ground. There was mention of any car park being used for park and ride during the weekdays. Maybe a joint venture between CU and Kingmoor Park?
• Is there going to be a Kingmoor Park Railway Station as part of the development? This option is apparently under consideration as part of the general infrastructure improvements for the area.
• Any early indications of how many pubs/bars will there be outside of the stadium?
• A decent sound system, but not music blasted out when goals are scored
• Undersoil heating (which works)
• A drop-off and pick-up lane for cars, as well as buses.
• Pedestrian and cycle routes to Kingmoor Park, including the old railway bridge behind the CIC, over the Eden.
• Why do training facilities have to be at Brunton Park? Many clubs use facilities away from their ground, and with the new Academy changes and ruling on releasing young players to the bigger clubs big investment in this is wasted. Things such as floodlit astro/3g pitches could be incoroporated and hired out to make money back.

Income Generation and cost saving

• Who owns the stadium? Do we get all income generated? Is it like a costly government PFI scheme?
• Put unwanted Brunton Park fixtures and fittings on sale - eBay, auction, etc.
• Sustainable stadium - use of renewables
• Photovoltaics
• Vertical Axis Wind Turbines (many small, not single/few large)
• Ground Source Heat system for stadium (underfloor heating) and pitch (undersoil heating)
• Pumped air heat recovery system for internal spaces
• Collection and storage of rain water, for use in toilets, showers, pitch watering, etc
• Do a week of open days and tours of all the areas of the stadium before demolition begins
• A bigger club shop, with a wider range of stock
• A feel for how the current avergage crowd of 5k travel to the matches ie how many walk / bus / car / train?
• Any feel for where the supporters live ie Harraby / Botcherby / Currock / Morton / St Anns / Denton Holme / Penrith / Brampton / Wigton / Workington / Whitehaven etc etc? If not, carrying out a major survey at a game(s) this season could help to decide how match transport could be optimised.

Stadium options

• Why Brunton Park would be so expensive to develop in phases? Until the £18m can be justified it only adds weight to the sceptics arguments. it would make sense to have that on the club website as soon as they can, because it is one of the things a lot of people seem to doubt. Not that it makes a difference, if it was 10 bob we couldn't afford it, but it has wound some folk right up.
• We already have 7500 seats at Brunton Park. If we are promoted (a massive IF - some on this forum tell you it will never happen - but then support the move?) we would still have three years to bring the ground up to scratch, and don't have to do all the work all at once.
• Where else do we get £18 million from? If you don't need something, then the amount of money if might cost is entirely irrelevant.
• We don't need to spend anything on ground improvements currently
• Bringing Brunton Park up to Championship standard wouldn't cost £18 million
• We wouldn't have to spend it right away even if we did go up. It's true we don't have the money currently - but we don't have £40 million available to sign Carlos Tevez either.
• It must be assumed that the renovation/development of all areas of BP will stop beyond the mandatory from this point on. Is there a 'plan B' if this development does not go ahead?
• How much is Brunton Park worth?
• What planning regulations remain on land that Brunton Park currently stands since the flood defence improvements were completed? What about the change of use, from Sports and Recreation, has this been relaxed?
• What the cost of a new build at Kingmoor is, to compare it with the (possibly) inflated cost of sorting out BP
• If the Kingmoor Stadium goes ahead
• What will Carlisle United own? It appears that the Stadium and buildings will be owned by Carlisle United, but not the land on which it sits (Leasehold)
• What will Carlisle United lease? It appears that there would be a small rent charged by the city council to Carlisle United for the land on which the new stadium and buildings are built.
• What sort of ongoing charges will be levied on the Carlisle United? It appears that there will be no additional charges, and that Carlisle United would pay ongoing maintenance, as they do currently at Brunton Park.
• Proposed timeframe for the development?

New stadium design

Current proposal is for 12,000 seats in four stands, with the option later to add 3,000 seats in the corners, creating a 15,000 seater 'bowl' stadium. However, no stadium design has been agreed yet.

• Has one already been chosen?
• Several good designs from around the world have been highlighted on CUFC message board
• Big screen(s)?
• Why only 12,000 capacity to start?
• Why choose to build a Tier 3 sized ground if you expect to be in Tier 2?
• How is reducing the capacity of our ground by 6,000 spaces considered by anyone to be progress?
• A new stadium should at least match our current capacity. How can reducing the size of our stadium by a third be classed as "ambition" or in any way forward thinking?
• How is reducing the capacity of our ground by 6,000 spaces considered by anyone to be progress?
• A new stadium should at least match our current capacity.
• How can reducing the size of our stadium by a third be classed as "ambition" or in any way forward thinking?
• If CUFC are promoted we would still have three years to bring the Brunton Park up to scratch (and don't have to do all the work all at once) or relocate. We'd have a much better idea on the capacity we'd require for any new ground if we are promoted and look like staying up.
• Why build a Tier 3/4 sized ground if you expected to be in the Tier 2? The four smallest current Tier 2 clubs:
• Watford Vicarage Road 16,900
• Blackpool Bloomfield Road 16,116
• Peterborough United London Road Stadium 15,460
• Doncaster Rovers Keepmoat Stadium 15,231
• If 12,000 then:
• West Stand 5,000 - taller than the other three stands, and the designated Family stand. Two tiers, with the executive boxes running between the tiers.
• East Stand 3,500 - singing stand, with half of it as "floating Season Ticket holders"
• North & South Stands 1750 each - one is home, one away?
• Option for some games to switch the 1750 Floating Season Ticket Holders from the East Stand to the South Stand, and designate the East Stand as Away Fans
• Why not consider having one stand of terracing, or at least a part of a stand?
• Build it so that if we do get up into the Championship (and stay there for 3 years...) it can be easily converted into a seated stand. With this option it would also increase capacity to 14-15,000 which most seem to think is an issue. just look at some of the sides in the Bundesliga who have the flexibility remove seating to provide terracing whenever they play their domestic matches, whilst still adhering to UEFA regs for CL duty.
• There's the possibility that some time in the future standing could be allowed again in the top two divisions, so it would make sense to have a standing area in the new ground, which could be turned into a seated area if needed. It would be pointless alienating a lot of fans when it's not necessary.
• Say what you like about Brunton Park - the East and West Stands are both excellent for watching football from - which is the whole point. Will Kingmoor Park be better than this?
• The club are selling this with the Championship in mind - if so what are the plans to invest on the pitch?
• Acoustically beneficial roof designs to improve the atmosphere
• High stands/foreboding atmosphere/approach to ground
• Concourses adorned with old pics, players, cityscapes etc
• Ticket Sales windows inside the main concourse, which can then be used for selling for Big Games, allowing fans to
• queue inside
• buy refreshments
• use the toilets
• Use of slate/sandstone cladding - keep the Cumbrian theme. Perhaps have gentle nods to existing Cumbrian landmarks within the design, such as Hadrian's Wall (or a Roman Fort).
• Like Brighton have, customise the away end with photographs, TVs showing their highlights/documentary, coloured lighting, local ales, etc, depending on who is visiting us, or at least see how successful Brighton's new ground is.

Project management

• What experience do the current Board of Directors have in managing large scale contracts like this, major projects and fundamental business change? The size of the businesses they previously ran, and the roles they held would not appear to have that sort of remit.
• What support will they bring in on the governance of this project? The developers AND the consultants both have vested interests - who from within the club, or to be brought in will be accountable. Who has the expertise to say 'no'?
• How will the club protect itself - particularly financially - from delays and financial shortfalls? What risks are the club exposing themselves to in making this move, and how will they protect themselves?

Currently proposed site at Kingmoor Park

The following map provides a basic idea of the zone (in grey) that has been allocated for the new stadium. The Stadium shape shown does not indicate what the stadium shape may be, but the green area is the same size as the current Brunton Park pitch and grass apron.

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